“I’m Christian but I would say I have Pagan leanings.”
If I had £10 for every time I’ve heard a woman say that recently, I’d be… well perhaps not wealthy but at least off to have a meal in a very expensive restaurant.
What might this mean?
Are Christians and Pagans always at odds?
First, let’s dissect the third word in that declaration above: does it have to be “but”? Well of course in conventional Christian theological terms it has to be “but” at the very least, preferably followed by lengthy self-flagellation. The two – Christians and Pagans – are deemed mutually exclusive.
On the face of it, they are. If you’re Christian you believe in one God (although divided into three in some mysterious way). If you’re Pagan, you believe in many Gods and Goddesses. The Christian Bible has unpleasant things to say about Witches (well let’s face it, it has many unpleasant things to say).
So why is it Pagan ‘leanings’ seem to speak to so many Christian women?
Declaration: I’m one of them. And I can only answer for myself. I think it can be “I’m Christian and I have Pagan leanings”.
Why the interest in Paganism?
There are two issues I believe are key to the rise of interest in Pagans and Pagan practices, especially among Christian women:
- The intensely patriarchal history and nature of Christianity, right to this day, which makes most thinking women wriggle on the hook of our faith. The European Witch burnings were only one among many extreme examples of Christian patriarchal power-broking.
- The way in which the verses of Genesis have been taken literally to give mankind (sic) the right to subdue the earth, to have dominion over it, which encourages an incredibly utilitarian and destructive approach to our mother earth and her creatures.
A huge amount of damage, to people and to the earth, has been done in the name of Christianity.
Women: it’s not all good!
Now I don’t want to romanticise us women. Yes, some of us give birth, some of us are naturally nurturing, some of us make deep connections with the land and with each other. But I think there’s something a little dangerous in the school of thought that women have a special, privileged relationship with creation, that we have some kind of free pass. I don’t like the way that both diminishes men and, subtly, lets them off the hook. Nor do I like the way it ignores the many women who are at best complicit and at worst active in our patriarchal structures.
If you’ll allow me just one generalisation, perhaps women generally find it easier to be inclusive rather than narrow about what we believe, and more able to express it.
heron evening meditation
Earth beauty
So what is it about Pagans and Pagan beliefs I and many other women find so attractive, and can they possibly fit with Christianity? These are the echoes and meanings the word Pagan has for me:
The direct connection with the Earth: finding the sacred in observing the rhythms of nature, in laughter, growing vegetables, stirring soup, making rituals and offerings with no need for a priest (male or female) to intercede.
Language: the specific naming of the divine as female (as well as male). Goddess has a real positive meaning for me. We can say all we want about the word God encompassing both male and female, but for centuries in all common Christian expression it meant male. (Which is why I find Claire’s habit of referring to Godde so helpful. It gives a little frisson of recognition.)
Lack of language: I love words, but sometimes they get in the way. The land can be our sacred scripture, Earth, Air, Fire, and Water our Gospels.
None of this seems to me in any way at odds with the true lessons of Christianity.
I’m currently reading a book called The Earth Path, by American eco-feminist and Witch Starhawk. Of the natural world she says:
Everything around us is always speaking. We can heal only by first learning to hear, to understand, and, in time, to respond. As we do, the world becomes richer, a more complex and vibrant place. Open your eyes; see the patterns of light and shadow, the play of the wind. You have already begun your education in the language of nature. You have already set foot upon the Isle of the Birds, which is always right here, wherever we are.
What do you think about all this? Are Pagans and Christians forever at odds?
Both images by Alice Popkorn
Elsewhere:
I can’t remember down what internet rabbit hole I found Margaret Finnegan, but I love her Goddess of the Week series. Jenny Peacock’s haunting story about her tree love brought tears to my eyes. And Hecate writes thoughtfully about living as a Witch in our modern world. Finally, of course one of the definitive books on the spiritual journey of women from Christian backgrounds is Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd.
{ 29 comments… read them below or add one }
Great post Tess, I sometimes share in groups of women I am leading on retreat that I consider myself a Pagan Benedictine (which to me is different than being a Benedictine Pagan). This past week I was away teaching and one of the women asked why my new book on the four elements was geared toward Christians in particular and I responded that I wanted Christians to see themselves as rooted in and called toward the same intimacy with the earth as Pagan traditions – that there isn’t as much of a division as we might think. And certainly the Christian calendar is a modification of previous earth-based festivals. In some ways for me the Pagan traditions are the primary, ancestral lineages which we can trace the word-based traditions back through, so I see honoring the earth (and reverencing her power) as part of my deep call which extends back through time. Your words about the interest in paganism as a resistance to patriarchy rings deeply true for me. Throughout the voices of Christian mystics you can find reference to Creation as the primary sacred text of revelation but we don’t often hear those in churches.
Tess
As a male of the species perhaps I’m not well qualified to comment, but I will anyway!
I suspect that Christianity and paganism will forever be at odds (which is different from Christians and pagans). Theologically I don’t see how the tension between one God, many gods can be resolved.
However, I do understand the essence of what you’re saying in your entry, and it does ring a bell with me. For me it’s not just the male domination of traditional Christian churches, it’s also the tendency towards rigid, intellect-based ways of worshipping and relating to God. It seems to me that we (Christians) can learn from other religions, including paganism. After all, we pinched the timing of their festivals! The Celtic church was very good at this – until it was more or less persecuted out of existence. Maybe the solution lies in embracing approaches and attitudes rather than trying to conjoin religions, but I recognise that this is easier to say than to achieve
I deeply enjoyed this post, Tess, as well as the rabbit-hole finds you shared with us. I know for me it was the reading of Sue Monk Kidd’s book, “Dance of the Dissident Daughter,” that led me down a different path to the mainline Christianity I had grown up with. After reading her book, I began devouring whatever I could find about women and their encounters with and understanding of the Divine. This opened up a whole new world to me in terms of the way I am still learning to see and be in relationship with God. And while I still consider myself a Christian, I most definitely am a Christian with pagan leanings.
I heard this from so many women I started an online community for them! (LOL!)
A Christian friend of mine likes to say “I’ve always been a little bit witchy.” I echo that as well. By this I mean, I feel connected to the Equinoxes and the Solstices, and the seasons have big pull on me. Also, I Iove rites and rituals and think they are powerful because they embody unseen beliefs, emotions, and spiritual realities. And, of course, having inclusive names for the Divine is an essential part of my vocabulary (but forbidden in many Christian traditions.)
But, there is too much in both Christianity, Pagan, and Wiccan traditions that I cannot “buy into.” So I wander this thin space between them all — as do many of us. It’s taken me awhile to feel safe here, but now I am thriving.
I too love “Dance…Dissident Daughter.” Two other (fictional) books that helped me piece together my current belief/practice system are “Confessions of a Pagan Nun” and “The Red Tent.”
I hope you get lots of contributors this this giant pool of wisdom you are starting here, Tess!
P.s. I was just listening to an interview on Speaking Of Faith with a professor who is also a Voodoo priest. He was explaining that in Voodoo there is one god, and all the many dieties are sort of expressions of various parts of a unified god. Christians, with the Trinity, are not very good monotheists anyway — so perhaps there is not as big as a gap between Christian monotheism and Pagan pluraity as one might think!
Oh. My. God(dess). Do I ever have stuff to say on this; I don’t think your poor comment box can hold it all.
I have recently come to the conclusion that I’d say my version of this phrase is:
I’m a Pagan woman with Christian roots.
As I’ve moved and grown I’ve done a lot of thinking about the exclusivity of these two Paths and I don’t think they are. I mean, I think they CAN be, if that’s how you choose to walk them, but I don’t think they are. Also, I know most Pagans come from a Christian background, but what I mean is that I’ve never abandoned my Christian roots, they still shape me and my beliefs. Gosh, I don’t even know where to begin justifying this statement too you. If you really want my thoughts I’d love to email them or guest post them, cause honestly, it’s a huge topic.
BUT, I would like to recommend you get your hands on a book called ChristoPaganism by Joyce & River Higganbotham. They teach Paganism classes and have books on it, and this book talks about the trend of blending Christianity and Paganism. I think you’ll find it fascinating.
Also, on the Bible verses about witches, it is generally considered in academic circles that those lines were “mistranslated” for political reasons (due to the timing of the translating) and most sources I’ve seen say they’d be more accurate if the word “Witch” was translated something like “Poisoner” (I’ve also seen it as possibly referring to gossip.) Either way, what we mean in modern terms by “witch” and what the Jews were referring to is NOT the same thing…
Just some thoughts.
I do not feel particularly pagan, maybe because I have no Celtic blood in me (or if there is, it is highly diluted). On the other hand, for having loved Hinduism and Buddhism before I decided to return to Catholicism, I am a mixture of many things.
Moreover, the Catholic hierarchy, imho, often does not behave in a Christlike manner, so who is really Christian?
My religion is very much shaped by my being a woman, and a feminist woman at that, and also my wanting and needing to connect with nature.
An interesting post, Tess, as usual. Thank you.
@Christine, Pagan Benedictine – I’ve certainly thought of that before in relation to myself. I love the phrase you use ‘intimacy with the earth’. There’s such a sense of communion with living things, and the Celtic church far more grounded – I use the word deliberately – than others.
Wandering the thin space, yes that resonates. With Wicca in particular, it feels too hierarchical to me – I don’t want to swap one hierarchy for another. A Pagan archetype that attracts me is the green witch or hedge-witch. Pagan Nun is on my “to read” shelf, and I do remember reading Red Tent some years ago. I think I may have recycled it. Interesting re Voodoo. I’ve always understood it to have a lot of resonance with Catholicism in particular – saints etc.
@Les, delighted to have a male of the species respond! I can only write from my gender perspective, but Richard Rohr is a great male exponent of respect for the earth. As is the whole Franciscan tradition from which he comes. I think you’re very right when you talk about intellect-based ways of worshipping. Perhaps that’s something also that’s specifically British. I remember an Orthodox priest from Greece saying with some amusement that in his community, parishioners would not hold back from, for example, touching the cross at Easter vigil, they would rush forward in a rapturous scrum, rather than queuing politely and piously as we Brits do!
@Chania Girl: glad to welcome you to the Pagan leanings club! Interested to know if you have any experience of what I just described about Greek worship in my comment to Les.
@Rachelle: you started an online community?? Wow, why didn’t you mention it, I might join!
@Claire: One of the reasons I love to read your posts is that they are so clearly shaped by your femaleness and connected nature. I agree with you that there is often little Christ-like about the Catholic hierarchy, and I think it’s a tragedy. The Catholic church could be (and is in some grass roots ways) a huge force for good.
Count me among those whose vague discomfort with the very patriarchal Baptist church lead me to Sue Monk Kidd’s enlightening book. My take is that in the early days, the feminine face of God was part of the norm. Perhaps she was Sophia? After all, Hagia Sophia is very old. I don’t pretend to know or guess how she fits into the Trinity (but how can three be one?). I believe a loving, whosoever-will-may-come God would realize that half of all creation is female, so would provide a voice to and for us, the feminine creatures.
I also suspect that it was the greedy and power hungry who chose to silence the feminine face of God long ago and to ignore that with dominion over something comes great responsibility. The damage to mother Earth perpetrated globally in the last century and more may be the ultimate irresponsibility and the undoing of all.
Grace and peace!
The answer to your question seems a double-edged sword, to me. Christianity likes to think of itself as having the market cornered on God and spirituality. But, let’s face it, they have borrowed from the Pagans, haven’t they? Do we really believe that JC was actually born on December 25th, when the night is so long? Does it strike us that many other religions have some sort of festival of light around that time of year ~ winter solstice? I don’t feel inclined to buy into the arrogance of exclusivity which Christianity asserts for itself. I think there are many roads to Rome, and just because we can’t see the all, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
i adore your willingness to wade into deep waters. you go, girl! i’ve never heard (or it hasn’t registered) the words “christian with pagan leanings”, but after reading your eloquent description, sign me up for the club!! i, of course, thought of celtic christianity all the way through this reading (btw- claire, i have no idea if there’s any celtic blood in this girl, but it sure does resonate.) it’s no wonder celtic spirituality is having a major revival (at least in my path of knowledge). the cool thing is much of it is being offered by christian men – with pagan leanings, i suppose
“dance of the dissident daughter” along with “water, wind, earth and fire” by CVP as well as numerous other readings have all reinforced the calling of my heart toward nature and a god more universal than the patriarchal male ruler of my christian forefathers. i’m currently reading “traveling with pomegranates” by SMK and the hate mail she received for writing “dance” was unbelievable. thank godde, she was willing and brave enough to put her voice into the word, as are you.
if you haven’t heard the song, “christians and pagans” by dar williams, do yourself a favor and add it to your playlist. it’s one of my favorites!!
btw – your use of “both/and” did not go unnoticed
heh-heh, I see you are symbolically sharing ‘the tractor’ by ploughing the fields of thought on a topic dear to my heart – and providing leadership along the way
Oh so much here – where to start perhaps the beginning is good?
Your swapping of the conjunctive word ‘but’ with ‘and’ is one that many of us resonate with, joining or adding together two things which appear to be conflicting opposites. But enough with the grammar lesson . . .
It’s great to have Les chime in with a male perspective. I agree wholeheartedly with his observation on the tendency towards rigid, intellect-based ways of worshipping and relating to God. And it’s not just a UK thing – that attitude is alive and well here in Australia too! The last function I attended as a church employee screamed it – the majority of participants being male – who were there to discuss the theory and techniques of a certain thing. I was the token female presenter – the one person actually practicing what they were all just talking about . . .
With women being XX and men being XY – we all have the feminine side to us – but during that conference, it struck me how hard it must be for a man to step into, live out, acknowledge that part of his being. The feminine intuitive side that embraces cycles and seasons, emotion, gut response, a non-logical, non-linear approach to life and all its mysteries. I had several men want to talk to me ‘privately’ about what I had shared. No way in hell would they show any interest or resonance with it in public! I have much respect for those like Les who are willing to wade into the public forum on these issues.
Christine and Rachelle are two wise women who have held space for me (and many others) as I attempt to name where it is I now find myself. For a word person, it amazes me that I still struggle to find the words to explain this inclusive thin space which prefers the conjunction ‘and’
(perhaps I no longer feel the need to explain, and instead am learning to just be)
I look forward to getting to know some of the ‘new’ (for me) people who have put their hand up in this conversation.
I don’t know that I consider connection the Earth – to the elements, Earth, WInd, etc. – to be pagan, silly me. I just thought that I was connecting in another way to the Creator of all and everything. Other gods, goddesses, ……still for me under the same Creator so I suppose that totally certifies me as a Christian Pagan? or PC? or maybe if I was a more narrow thinker in the terms of what I believe the Godde of the Trinity “should be” I would be offended by those who “first” connect to the earth or animals or all elements before they connect with the God that I consider almighty…..to me it’s just the path they have chosen and inevitably we will all arrive at the same place. Naive, I’m certain, comforting for me, definitely!:)
xo
Like Claire, my Celtic connections are sparse, but I find their approach to Christianity is very much flavoured by the Old Ways. Like Les, I bemoan the intellectually-centered faith of many males in Christianity. It leads toward a vertical, hierarchical orientation, while I believe women reach out in a lateral, emotion-enhanced way that many men cannot access.
There are times when I have felt as if the earth were percolating with the Divine. I like to think walking on the grass barefoot in the early morning is prayer. One of the most sacred places I have ever visited is the Willow Dome at the Jesuit retreat house in Ontario. It was constructed from the willow trees on the property by a group of Wiccans. It is open to the sky and the air through the interlaced branches and is decorated in all manner of delightful and playful ways, something like a Christmas tree. There are nods made to other, more formalized religions. For example, there is a tree trunk that splits into three in the centre of the Dome. I referred to it as a Middle Earth Cathedral in a poem. It had that feel. If I have enough mosquito repellent, I make a pilgrimage there when I am on retreat.
Thank God someone is talking back to the Christians effectively, It is good and we should continue this fortunate situation where Pagans and Christians are at odds. On the need for Goddess spirituality, create your own altar and write your own prayers, you are the Goddess!
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. ~ Frank Lloyd Wright
Good article. The church needs to be inclusive and dive deeper beyond the words to see the unity. Thanks
@Barbara Anne, yes, I believe there is an old tradition that the holy spirit is female, and I’ve read a few books where Sophia crops up in a wisdom sense.
And thank you for raising the dreaded word “should”. I have lots to say on that. Another time…
@Roxanne, Christianity has indeed taken over all kinds of Pagan dates and adjusted Pagan customs. To my knowledge, there’s no definitive scholarship about the extent of this because Pagan customs would vary from country to country. I’d be happy to be proved wrong on this though. To be fair, it is pretty standard practice for an incoming faith to build on the one(s) before.
@lucy, A good point about Celtic spirituality being offered by men. And two good recommendations – pomegranates and the song you mention, which I’m just about to download. AND, I knew you’d appreciate the both/and. You see your influence is spreading!
@kel, I think it certainly is difficult for men – societal expectations of men are in some ways even more rigid than for women, and it must be easy to travel in the same old furrow (spot tractor reference!). I was just reading today something about the damage done by tokenism in a work context – the token woman, the token gay etc. It just makes the establishment believe that only extraordinary people of whatever minority it is can make it, not that talent is normal among minorities.
@SS: Silly you indeed!
@Barbara: Oh I immediately want to visit The Willow Dome. Your comment sent me off to Google and I found this article: http://www.ignatiusguelph.ca/land/land_sacred.html#willowdome. But I prefer your magical description.
@Tenar: Great quote by FLW!
@Megan, a belated thank you for your comment which I’ve just retrieved following your Tweet, having dived through the murky underbelly of my site’s spam folder. I think I need to wash my hands!
Anyway, welcome to my blog, and I’m so pleased you contributed your comments on this. I do suspect it’s true that most Pagans come from Christian backgrounds – at least I cannot think of one I’ve met who has not. Love the sound of the book you mention and will look out for it.
I’ve also heard this about the bible translations, and it’s so difficult to know what to trust. I’ve heard that it refers to nasty sorcerer types. Anyway, I’m delighted to have your comment and hope to continue the discussion.
When I embraced paganism years ago, connecting to the divine feminine was very healing and comforting for me. It gave me a greater sense of grace and beauty and my own power.
I agree with all that you say here, and I love the stimulating discussion this post created!
Thanks Polli, and yes the discussion and affirmation of the comments has been wonderful.
To my way of thinking, there is no conflict whatsoever except for the literal-minded. In all of human history ‘Gods’ and ‘Goddesses’ of all shapes and sizes and descriptions have only ever truly existed at a symbolic level, not on some literal Mount Olympus. As Carl Jung explained so well, they are archetypes: patterns or templates for various aspects of human consciousness which can never be grasped directly but only experienced in the same way that instincts are experienced, as they move and shape us.
So for example, in a special moment of wonder at the magnificence of Creation we touch into something bigger and far vaster than ourselves and we may call it ‘God’. Or we may not. It doesn’t alter the moment itself. On a sunny, June day with wildflowers blooming in profusion, and birds singing, when my heart seems to swell in my chest, I may breathe the name of Gaia, the Earth Goddess. Or I may not. But the experience simply is what it is, regardless, and it fills that moment to the brim. When I give thanks for the beneficence of water falling at last on a thirsty garden, it is the feeling of gratitude and the joy that comes from the rising scent of wet earth that is significant, not whether or not I express it in a prayer of thanks to Jupiter Pluvius or Chaac or some other ‘entity’. We feel and breathe our worship and our prayers; the cultural differences or personal preferences that govern our choice of words, concepts and personifications with which to describe them don’t matter.
It is not the differences themselves that really separate us. It is the curse of literal-mindedness. It is that same curse, when allied with the human tendency to squabble and jostle for power, that causes wars, jihads and utterly unnecessary human suffering as armies of ‘the faithful’ march against each other. (‘My god is better than your god’ becoming, then, just a more deadly variant of ‘my penis is bigger then yours.’)
I am neither ‘Christian’ nor ‘Pagan’ nor shall I ever be. I am a woman whose spirituality is firmly rooted in the Earth AND in whose heart Christ-consciousness is ever-present. No ‘but’ there at all.
In some other century, the power-brokers of the time, bound by the limitations of their literal minds plus their repressed fear and envy of my mysterious ‘powers’ (like giving birth) would no doubt have burned me at the stake.
Hi Tess,
I’ve been down and up trying to get traction on my own projects recently, and I think your blog has done a lot to keep me strong. You know how to go to the heart of things where the essential antagonism exists, and therefore the dialog that results has such a powerful response. The women I know who are active in the Wicca movement and privately call themselves witches keep a very low profile on that commitment often in the blogs. I don’t think it has to do with a running away or a hiding of sentiments, but there is a strength in that private bonding — out of sight, with no personal end or gain visible, except the personal liberty to worship as we please. And right there, the break away from the form, the rules, the rigid authority of church and state, is a deliverance, a salvation that is celebrated also in Christ’s own standing apart in his time from all forced faith in anything, except the truth as we sincerely witness it.
I have to say I’m delighted at the positive and intelligent comments this post has attracted. Thank you all.
@Marian, you are right on target with that curse of literal-mindedness. This whole subject is beginning to remind me of something I heard recently about “listening to God call you by your name” and it seemed absolutely ridiculous – why would Godde call me by anything as restricting as my human name? I think it works the other way on, also.
@kigen, I’m glad my blog has been helpful. I completely understand about that private bonding. And I like what you say about Christ standing only for truth. I do, though, wish that more intelligent Pagans and Witches were visible around the blogs. There are so many really, really dire Pagan sites around: badly written, badly designed, difficult to read (because of all the black and purple!). It would be great to read some thoughtful ones. Although perhaps the problem is no different from all the really, really dire sites out there on all kinds of subjects – the good ones are there, it’s just finding them.
Hey, wanted to let you know that I put up a post, prodded along by your own, that touches on Paganism – or, at least, what I think it is. Thought I’d share with all of you… (The link is on my name!)
Yours,
Megan
Hey Megan, yes I just read your post late yesterday – it’s really interesting. I ordered the ChristoPaganism book you mentioned and am looking forward to reading it.
Hi, found your blog yesterday or stumbled onto it, this caught my eye…I am a believer in Jesus and the Bible, and a feminist. However, though I do lean Strongly towards spiritual-nature beliefs, I do not do the whole pagan thing…survivor of RA abuse and know a bit about yes, Celtic and Venus, goddess beliefs, the Dark Side to those, also the Dark Side of Catholicism and Masonry, will leave it at that…so I do not trust the spiritual forces behind those Nor the spiritual deceptions of what I term as the mensianty [Christianity that is not about Christ but doctrines of patriarchal men in the model of Greece/Rome pantheon and/or Egyptian-Babylonia pyramid model], so,
for me, especially to Heal, in reading the Bible and questioning God on all the misogyny and really digging, also studying the ancient cult beliefs, I started to lean to the Ancient beliefs, that I do believe are far different than what is termed pagan-wicca, etc. One said here the witches mentioned in Hebrew is not the same, I concur, though how to discern, I think there is great care needed…so I guess, for me, what I found helpful was reading Native American beliefs, some of them, they were not homogeneous I have found, but anyway,
that’s kind of where I lean, to a large degree. It was Mother Earth [earth is called She in Bible, also there were several commands to Respect Mother Earth in Bible that are So ignored by man's doctrines] that I would be led to for healing…Similar to paganism but not quite,
does that make sense? So maybe Ancient Hebrew, that I relate to, a lot, can understand, which in so many ways were very much like Native Indians, and I do believe, the Native American Indians [many tribes] were of the sons of Noah because it was after Noah, it says the earth ground was split, interesting, and how the three split and the nations under them, and the types of labor they did, but all had similar beliefs in regards to stewardship of earth, etc, contrary to the structure of pyramids-hierarchy [Egypt/Babylon] that were about gold-silver, etc. Rome and Greece, mingled in with that later–anyway,
all extremely patriarchal and misogynist, look at the Fruits of ‘religion’ and there ya go, especially the gold-silver and goods/works of hands, exploitation and all that heavily rely on demonization of women/her sexuality OR by exploiting her sexuality via cult-prostitution-sex slavery for temples–a.k.a. money payments. [relying on gender role constructs and labor around those]
Ain’t much changed today, if anything think we’re going backwards like an hourglass, but anyway…I did go through a period prior to coming back to my faith in Christ that I got into everything from Marxism [materialist no god] to goddess feminism to logic to then back to ‘churchianity’ and in all that, never could reconcile the patriarchy esp the extreme misogyny in religion [and I am acquainted with all three, Judaism, Christianity and Islam-brief period and it was the worst] and then the RA abuse growing up which was in paganism/Celtic influence and Venus–long story, which was sexual btw as well as psychological,
so Both messed up my life and a Lot of soul damage. I just would say now, be Very careful, really do your homework, study, not all is always as it appears. But then too how to reconcile, and find healing–has been a very long and hard process, for me, and oddly it was the Bible that the Spirit led me to Mother Earth and how all the life forces work, and that, is where the healing fo me begun and the removal of so much garbage, toxins, and damage that went very deep. I don’t go to church, can’t stomach the mensianity culture, what hurts is seeing so many women hurting,
like there is no place, you know,
other than going to the other pole, I think a lot of it also has to do with our being disconnected with the natural world, nature, and the damage that has caused, both men and women. While I believe strongly in the Bible I do not read it literally, it is a Spiritual book, the keys are in the book but it’s the heart that one has to see, and there is a Lot of feminine in it, but it’s very difficult to see through internalizations and the lens of patriarchy because of the male language that was Greek, a heavily misogynist culture that was all about the Pantheon, patriarchy, etc., though yes, there were goddesses, all that of course, gender role constructs again…ripe for exploitation, esp sexual.
So, for me, it’s finding that balance, the feminine in God, who is Spirit, I also think so much of the Bible much was Deliberately left out–or translated in ways where it is so easily bent to misogyny, that cannot be denied. But, if one looks, there are keys,
example, the rape of the concubine–in the B.C. era, under Mesopotamia, heavy into goddess beliefs btw, girls/women were nothing more than sex objects, in Egypt esp, that concubine, nameless to show All women are terrorized under patriarchy, was vindicated by God Himself–what is missed in the reading, so often, due to our ‘indoctrinated lens’ is where it says, ‘there was not such a evil thing since Egypt in all of Israel/area’, in other words, it was THE first rape/gang rape–and God’s answer–HE killed all the men responsible AND men In Israel, a purging, at the end of the book of Judges, it says, there was no king/law and men did as they darn well pleased, so there are two keys there,
I use this example because in all the Years that element of the story is left out, AS one of the justifications for male domination/female subjugation, the Concubine was already a sex slave, but even a sex slave in That era, had Human Rights, Women’s Human Rights–when you look at it in the Dialectic, then you see it,
and there are Numerous things like this, including references to Mother Earth, Animals, etc., that are in the Old Testament, in the ancient Hebrew–So, to conclude,
I don’t think, it’s so much that Christ borrowed from paganism, as it was, that the ancient beliefs were already there, that through evolution and power, especially of materialism, slavery grew, misogyny was the basis of and nationalism, and the ‘image’ of God also changed…those ancient beliefs WERE God, the Creator of all things, man, is the one, that tampered with,
and has been doing so ever since, creating god in HIS man image, either by sole or pantheon, with women, always, the sexual chattel to meet man’s fertility needs, one way or another. Lerner touched on this a lot in her Creation of Patriarchy, a good book,
but, is my studies of ‘goddess’ beliefs including Celtic, they were NOT the women friendly beliefs that we are lead to believe, same with several Native Tribes, so, I think it has more to do with economy-labor [like Marx said] and the whole Power dominance model,
for me, returning to nature, to see the balance and interdependence of all in her, and in him, is key there–and oddly, I saw this in Bible too–after I dumped the ‘religious’ lens and really tore it apart, line by line. We are of both heav en and earth, Jesus, took clay and spit, to heal and give sight, to the Blind man,
there is a message in that. We just miss it, in either extreme pole. At least, that is what I have found…
love this blog btw, some really good wisdom here.
Jane
Jane, thank you for your comment, and welcome to my blog. You raise a lot of very interesting and interconnected points, thank you. And thank you also for being so open about your experiences of abuse. I like very much where you say about the Bible “the keys are in the book but it’s in the heart one has to see”. Very similar to my own belief.
Tess, over the months, finding that Peace with these leanings, I think is the most difficult, because of all the prior doctrine I have known, and I wonder, for those women who do not feel comfortable with the pagan-goddess beliefs or the wicca also struggle with this, I think Tess what really angers me, yea I’ll use that term due to it’s truth, is just how much Women are robbed and have been, via through traditional, doesn’t matter if it’s fundamentalist or liberal, Christianity, of not just their inner Feminine OUTSIDE THE DEFINES of males and even a male god persona [same is true for left politics, this is where I see a Lot of similarities between all forms of ideological dogma /male defining and religion] but anyway, also of their Autonomy [inner driven] to define Without having to resort to going over to other belief systems that may cause cognitive dissonance or guilt.
The issue I have with the pagan beliefs [and I Do have Celtic blood] is the myths of them today, that are and do really leave out the historical Truths, regarding Women, they were not these pro-matriarchal beliefs, quite the contrary, some were even more misogynist than the early Christiandom, and I believe they actually Merged more than became separate. [same with political] And maybe, the political-social merged with the religion, v ice versa,
so, yea to me, it’s like, two extreme poles BUT they really aren’t that extreme different when it comes to What they esteem about females, like in the poles of politics, they both, center around sexuality, I think that is what perturbs me the most. And that gets me to question really, did Women actually in the ancient times Define their beliefs OR were they simply reacting to the Male defined beliefs, be it pagan or non-pagan, as a means of coping and survival in a misogynist-male dominated world? Like, is women’s spirituality, just like in the political/philosophical, Truly women defined or women Reactionary defined? And if the latter is the case,
we still do not have a True women centered belief system and I think that may be a huge reason why in All belief systems, even those deemed more feminine in core [though as usual, sexual base], there is always that evolution to exploitation of her sexuality, for social Male use–be it for Mutterland/nationalism, for state machinery-communism, etc., for labor, for temple [today trafficking for arms/business/etc] prostitution which Was HUGE under ALL of the goddess religions, all whom had male god counterparts, for anarchy [women were prostituted and did a lot of the dirty/dangerous work/fact, eg in Russia, because women were dispensable and like so what if they get caught/imprisoned, etc., men who were the intellectual backbone of Any revolutionary movement they boys club always works to protect, and Even in, let's say, the matriarchal leaning paganism--there is still a hierarchy, in occults, well, it's the whole women as sacrifice-rituals, esp female children....[Mayan, Celts, Northern, Hindi under Kali, etc, also Caste slave system, can't deny the exploits and abuses under Any of them, since early Egypt/Mesopotamia, the abuse of women of non-elite class is Central to all the beliefs/and economics.]
so,
I guess, where I am at, is looking for the female in nature Without all the other constructs no matter HOW women friendly they may appear, and there is a huge difference I think, I may be wrong, but I do wonder. And even the Bible–I do question God on these things, a lot, I haven’t like for Firm been able to say, Yes the Bible is by God and that is that–there are many things that Do cause me to question, if God is real or simply a male construct that changed over the course to Justify his rule/power and abuse over both women and the earth. I often wonder, if ‘god’ was a construct because Woman, was the Only mammal, that could tell man, NO. So like I do wrestle with this, back and forth, a lot,
or, maybe the Bible, was keys, but interesting thing is, Jesus said, he Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, He didn’t say, the Bible will lead you into all truth, also, another interesting thing,d
He said, by their fruits ye shall know them, fruits is not the same as works…so IF we go by fruits, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, etc. which are by the Holy Spirit, both paganism and religion fail–particularly where it comes to Women and Children, love and peace, do not burn people to the stake or in wickermen [Celts] or enslave and make girls into sex slaves–all those are power abuses,
see what I mean? So, to me, it’s not just about questioning or leaning to beliefs, only, but Deconstructing power—where pagan fails in this, like where magic is used, is That, too, is using power, to Control and Dominate others, be it nature forces or people, it’s no different than using Doctrines to Control and Dominate,
so, maybe we can learn something in Nature, here, animals yes, plants do have power, they even war when resources are limited but not Anything, like humans do, be they male or female. Yet, animals do not have various ‘religions’, you know, or beliefs, they simply go by Instinct,
so, the funny thing is, Women do have instinct, maybe question is, how much has our Natural instinct been robbed due to Both religions, ideologies and yes, paganism?
IF we, as women, were to abandon all and simply go by Instinct, deconstructing all male defined beliefs in all beliefs, I wonder what we would come up with? It’s a scary thought because it’s so primitive and having to face inner demons, But, maybe, that is where, we truly meet who the Creator is,
last night, I did an experiment, I shut my eyes and stayed silent, what IF, I was blind, mute and dumb and could not see, hear, or talk, when you do this, what you have is inside yourself, your connection to the outside is shut off, it’s not a good feeling, because all you have is smell and touch. Touch, the sense is stronger therefore you feel pain and pleasure more–you sense more of the world around you but in a whole different way, you also see inside yourself, a Whole lot more, it’s not like you are distracted or can run away…and it made me think, of how when they execute or torture, odd how they always mask and duct-tape a person, there is reason for that–
what is inside a person, will then be the locus of control. Depending on what that person knows prior to [if they've always been in this state I do not know how that would be, I would suspect, very difficult] but anyway, there is something spiritual that happens, definitely good and evil. And anyway, the good I recalled in this experiment was a lot of nature and some family memories and scripture, then I thought, What if, I had not know Any belief, Then what? What would I draw on there? Well, nature,
and how I related to that…touch wise, I don’t know all that this entails or just what I will learn from this but I plan on doing more experiments like this, to find out. I thought what it must have been for Helen Keller, it must have been terrifying but one thing I did notice, was touch, like my nail, it felt sharper, so like, we are deprived in a lot of ways By what we see, hear, and say,
which, funny thing is, the Bible talks about this, even from Genesis, the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh which I think has more to do than with touch, like how we perceive things based on wants, and then there is a lot about what we speak…words have power.
Nature, is silent, other than singing or the sound of wind, crash of waves, other than the music nature makes, it’s silent–so like,
there is Obviously, that dimension there, and I think women have more of the instinct because of the feeling of darkness/pain in childbirth, being vulnerable and even silenced due to misogyny/violence, like there is this dimension that women feel, that I don’t think–has to be by the defines of religions or male defined beliefs–there is that spiritual–but I’m to the place, where I am questioning more and more, that maybe the way to find or tap into, IS to get into nature, alone, survive in nature alone, maybe even time blind and dumb and silent,
just to see, inside…without the constructs. This is where, I think the Comanche beliefs were interesting, they were not homogeneous, but Each had their own connection to nature, to find their own harmony.
I guess my point is Tess, even in paganism, I still find a lot of group following, that is depending on women fulfilling an expected Role, rather than her inner self. And it is there, that I find that patriarchy, is still just As dominant, even in the so called ‘professed’ female centered beliefs as it is, in yes, all three of the main religions.
Just some things, I have pondered on a lot lately.
Jane
Thanks for your further comments, Jane.
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